Puppetmasters Unite!

[Edy]

Ok so I openly admit to knowing very very little about the PUP job - The only PUP I knew up to a few weeks ago was Myawela!

Well I don't want to be ignorant any longer. As some of you may know Jaizon is leveling up his PUP [probably as I type this] so he'll understand more about it.

So can you new PUP's and old ones please post here and tell me anything that you need/want for PUP's on this shell. It is meant to be SMN/BST/PUP and neither of three jobs take priority over the other.

[Myawela]

Cool Edy, glad you started this thread. I never got to hang around too many PUPs (Catoci was really the only other one I knew) when I was leveling the job myself so I really only know from my own experience, I'd imagine this is probably the same with a lot of PUPs though.

On that note, I'm quite pleased with the number of PUPs we have joining the shell these days. I think that as BST and SMN we're pretty used to working with each other and have a good idea about what we do enough to function together and plan well. The more events we have and the more PUPs come out to them will help everyone get a better understanding of what a PUP does, what we're capable of and what limitations we have.

Also, if people have questions about PUP or are curious about something, please post it here so the PUPs can answer you.

[Geode]

Nov 18, 2008 2:37:20 GMT -6 Myawela said:

The more events we have and the more PUPs come out to them will help everyone get a better understanding of what a PUP does, what we're capable of and what limitations we have.

I've leveled PUP a little bit and I still don't get it. Why wait until another event? Give us the lowdown now!
PUP: What does it do? Capabilities? Limitations?
Do PUP duo/trio parties work? Do PUPs duo/trio w/ SMN or BST well?

[Opher]

Being only a lvl 60 PUP I'm probably not he most qualified to answer this, but here's what i know/have heard, so take it all with a grain of salt.

• We can provide to the party any type of damage: Piercing, Slashing, Blunt, and Magical.
  
  
• Our Mations get Cure V, and Tier IV nukes, both comparable in potency to their respective Mage class casters. 1.3k nukes anyone? Practically limitless mp? {Yes, please.}
  
  
• Our Mations have amazing WS's (VE's Cannibal Blade leeching HP, SS's Daze and Armor Piercer being able to do 1k+ dmg)
  
  
• We can sub a mage job and be decent casters ourselves.
  
  
• Although we have a mere C in our highest weapon skill rating we can still pump out some decent dmg.
  
  
• With it's access to Flash, Stoneskin, a Utsusemi rip-off (3 shadows), Provoke, Automation Oils, and various other attachments (added evasion, defense, up to 4HP/tick Regen) it's a semi-viable tank, it's not going to out perform a NIN or PLD but it'll get the job done.
  
  

I'm probably missing some things but there's a start for you.

[Edy]

I am feeling slightly more enlightened! thank you for all your comments so far - So how do you get your mation to do all these things? it sounds way too complicated.

As a SMN with an avatar you pull it out, assault target and then use BP: ward or BP: Rage every minute until your mp runs dry.

As a BST you charm a pet and fight a mob with it, use reward, sic etc or pop a jug and use snarl.

These jobs sound so much more simple than PUP. Am I wrong?

[Myawela]

Very nice, thanks Opher. I'll try to go into a bit of the limitations of the job and issues PUPs face in my post a bit here too.

First and foremost, the 20 minute activate timer. This is a huge limitation and I really wish it would be lowered because without our puppet we are severely gimped. If your puppet dies and the timer isn't up, you're pretty well screwed until it is ready again. PUPs have their seemingly limitless mp because once per minute we are allowed to deactivate our puppet, and if we do so with it at full health we can ignore the 20 min activate timer and reactivate it immediately with it's hate reset, timers reset and full mp. This is a great thing but I can't tell you how many times an aoe goes off right when you're doing it and screws you for 20 min, or the mob decides to hit the puppet or something.

Deactivating and reactivating is very common on the blm puppet because it's first 2 casts are typically it's strongest nukes then it will begin to cast things like aspir and absorb-int and stuff like that for a little bit before going back to more nukes. We can get a couple nukes off then deactivate and reactivate asap and just keep going like that, clearing hate every time we do so and getting all mp back.

The automatons do get some nice spells with the whm and blm heads. With the attachment that makes casting a little faster I think we get one spell cast about every 20 seconds, so that is always something to consider.

With the WHM puppet, it always puts priority on the master and itself so you can't always heal the person you really want to keep alive if you get hurt or the puppet gets hurt or decides to convert right before it's next spell or something. It also requires a light maneuver to be active for it to cure party members so if we happen to be overloaded, or the light maneuver wears at the wrong time (happens all the time lol) then you're screwed for another 20ish seconds or whatever it is.

For the master, it also prioritizes things like poisona, paralyna etc. over curing so we can be almost dead and paralyzed and it'll paralyna us before it'll cure V us. Thankfully for party members this isn't the case as it requires a water maneuver to force a status cure over a cure, but if the master is poisoned it's going to cast that before trying to cure anyone else.

Puppets in general are pretty weak and can be beaten down rather quickly. They can really use a def boost to say the least.

PUP does have access to a lot of mp gear and we can sub the mage jobs but since pup has no native MP itself it'll have a bit of a low pool compared to other casters. I'm trying to get my sch leveled up currently so I can sub that on pup but I have a ways to go on it.

There are many spectacular attachments for puppets, having my whm puppet that can convert (and the timer is almost always ready when you need it) is awesome. There's pretty much an attachment for everything but some sound better than they are. I use the Flash attachment often but it really only lasts for a couple swings after it lands on a mob. The stoneskin attachment does not scale as you level, it is always 100hp protection so it's very nice at low levels but doesn't do a lot at higher levels. That being said about the stoneskin attachment, I use it often because it can block a bit of aoe here and there. In order to get 3 shadows out of the blink attachment (and I do believe it functions more like blink than utsu whereas hits can still get through) you need to have 3 wind maneuvers up when it goes off, maybe people pull this off regularly but I never did because I usually didn't have the time to get 3 wind maneuvers up when it would go off heh.

In case anyone doesn't understand what maneuvers are and how they work. Maneuvers are based on the elements and we can have up to 3 of them active at any given time and it is a 10 second timer before you can use another maneuver. Using too many of the same maneuver, or using maneuvers too quickly after zoning or activating the puppet will cause you to overload and until that wears off you can't use any maneuvers. Puppets have various capacity for how much of each element they can hold so we have to plan our attachments to fit within the limitations of the type of puppet frame we are using.

Some of the attachments are activated when you use the same elemental maneuver that corresponds with that attachment. For example, the stoneskin attachment is earth based so it won't activate unless it's timer is ready and you have an earth maneuver active. Other attachments are enhanced by the more maneuvers you use that correspond to it. An accuracy attachment would give you a small bonus with no thunder maneuvers up, but for each additional thunder maneuver that is active the bonus will increase. There are also attachments that will help you to prevent overloads so that can help if you plan on using multiple maneuvers of the same element.

We also get a couple nice merit abilities at 75. Role Reversal allows us to trade our hp with the puppets hp and Ventriloquy allows the same for enmity.

I'm sure there's lots I've missed as I didn't even talk about a lot of the frames. Sharpshot (rng) is our standard DD frame, Valoredge (melee) has better def and around 1800 HP but he still can't take a beating too well since nobody can cure it and it can't cast on itself with that frame. RDM frame is nice sometimes when you don't need the full force of whm for healing and just want to do some extra damage, I would use it soloing or in campaign more than other situations.

I could probably keep going but I think that's quite enough for now from me hehe.

[Opher]

I haven't played either BST or SMN so I can't really say for sure, but I'll attempt to explain. WARNING! Long post.

Job Ability "Activate" brings out your Automation.
"Deactivate" makes it go away.
"Deploy" makes the auto engage the target, but you don't necessarily have to fight the same mob.
"Retrieve" calls the auto back to your side and will do nothing, even if something engages you or you, it.

The Mation must be equiped with one "Head" and one "Frame", and that's what gives it it's base AI.

Halequin Head/Frame makes the mation run in and mele and cast a few spells mainly cures and a few enfeebles.

The Stormwaker Head/Frame is similar to the Harle in that the mation goes into mele range, but it had a wider variety of spells to use Cures, Enfeebles, and Elemental magic, as well as better skill ratings in all those aspects.

The Valoredge Head/Frame makes the mation stay right next to the mob and mele away, it has the highest Mele skill rating of all the Head/Frames, does slashing damage, high HP, and has access to Cannibal Blade an HP stealing weaponskill (100%dmg -> HP).

The Sharpshot Head/Frame is the Ranger auto. If you "Deploy" it out of it's mele range it'll sit there and use Ranged attacks (delay about 15-20 sec between shots), or if deployed in mele range it'll mele the mob and still use it's ranged attack every 15-20 sec. Has piercing dmg of course, has access to the weaponskills Daze (additional effect: Stun), and Armor Piercer (Ignored Def).

Then there are 2 additional Heads for the Storm/Harle Frame

The Soulsoother Head enhances the mations support abilities while taking away it ability to cast Elemental magic. Gives it access to -na spells as well as Regen up to III as well as higher Magic Skill Rating.

The Spiritreaver Head does about the opposite. Removes it's ability to Cure and cast -na spells for the ability to cast up to Tier4 nukes as well as Absorb-INT, Drain, and Aspir.

And that's the basic AI. It's pretty simple, I think I just made it sound more complicated than it is.

On to the next step, once you have your base AI set up (Head/Frame) you put on things called "Attachments" that more or less fine tune the AI. Some add rng/mele acc/dmg, some haste, def, more HP/MP, Abilities (Provoke, Flash, Stoneskin, HP/MP regen/refresh), prioritizing Cures, etc.

Once you have your attachments set you use "Maneuvers" to put them into use.

Let's say you have the attachments, "Strobe" (Gives Provoke), and "Mana Tank" (Gives MP Refresh) on your mation.
Strobe is a fire-based attachment, so to activate it you need to use the pet ability "Fire Maneuver", and if you cooldown for your mations Provoke ability is at 0 it'll use Provoke on the engaged target.
Mana Tank is a Dark-based attachment, to activate it you would use "Dark Maneuver" to get a 1MP/3sec Refresh, but, if you were to use another Dark Maneuver you would bump that to a 2MP/tick Refresh, and if you were to use a 3rd you'd get 3MP/tick.

Not all attachments scale with more Maneuvers, the limit of maneuvers you can have up at a single time is 3, but be ware of "Overload"ing. Overloading is caused by using maneuvers in too rapid of succession, and when over loaded all your maneuvers will be erased and you will be unable to use more until overload goes away.

I think that about sums it up.

[Edy]

Wow thanks you guys that has explained a lot to me about the Mation - does the puppetmaster usually engage with its prey like we can do as BST or are PUP's more like SMN's and stay back away from the actuall fighting?

[daii]

I will answer this one (I feel so kedt out LOL!)
(Please Note: This is MY logic and MY opinion, so others may feel differently but...meh.)

Yes and yes! We change our fighting style based on our target/situation/puppet set-up. For the most part, yes we do melee alongside our pets but in some situations (endgame comes to mind >.<) it is normally better to just sit back while the auto fights.

Like Mya said regarding maneuvers, we cycle through maneuvers often, along with keeping our pet alive(Repair), DDing, using job abilities (This is especially apparent with /dnc). So in, say, Dynamis I normally just hang back and let the little mini-gundam (:3) tear at the mobs while I make sure that I keep all of the maneuvers in the order they need to be in.
In normal parties and other similiar situations we are melee along with the others.

I know Mya mentioned this before but: AoE IS THE DEVIL! (okay... maybe not that wording but meh.) For those of you who were at the puk znm for the first fight this was what kept screwing me over. I send Petrochka out to cast a spell, the nm aoe's and puppet's gone for 20 minutes and the casting didn't have time to complete.

Alright, that's enough for right now.. Gotta get to school!! If anyone has any questions that they need addressed regarding PUP, I'm here! (not physically but... still)

[Geode]

Thank you for all of the responses. Very interesting, if any of it is true.
Have any of you duo'ed w/ another PUP? BST? SMN? Does that even work? What were your roles in parties, assuming you ever leveled in parties?

[daii]

I have duoed a couple times with my PUP friend. Basically we each used whm puppet and took turns keeping each other alive.
The other approach we took was 1 person whm frame and the other blm frame. Basically for quicker battles.

I have never duoed with BST or SMN, but I think it would be fun to try out! ^^

Party-wise, you will be mostly spiritreaver nuking, soulsoother healing or sharpshot ranged-ing (>.>. You will need to decide what puppet would be better to use based on where you are fighting. I.e., beetle=nuker, bird=duh! sharpshot, imps=healing.
In short, we play multiple roles based on what is needed.

ThatsAllForNow!

[Edy]

Intersting - would be coll if we could arrange soe sort of jug/mation/avvy burn and us non-pups can try and see first hand what the three jobs combined can do.

For instance on the HNM/ZNM's we been doing I've noticed that for BST and SMN, BST jug pets and local pets keep the hate off us SMN's so we can just summon an avatar use a BP and then Release. As SMN's Hp is so low this can be a matter of life or death for us!

Would be nice to see how the PUP can integrate into what is already considered a working system.

[daii]

Hmm. I'd try to theorize that but... lol I dono anything about BST and very little about SMN! XD

[Myawela]

Nov 19, 2008 21:55:33 GMT -6 Edy said:

Would be nice to see how the PUP can integrate into what is already considered a working system.

The main ways I would see pup integrating into a bst and smn setup would be using /sch or /whm as sub jobs with either whm or blm puppet for the obvious reasons.

Our puppets will only cast spells when they are engaged to a mob, but if we are cautious of our timers and the attachments that we use (as in, no flashbulb lol) we could get our puppets to cure V away from battle by engaging a random mob and forcing a cure V then calling back our puppet before it takes a swing. We could heal from our sub job at the same time as well.

BLM puppet would be the typical engage, fire off a couple nukes, deactivate/reactivate and start over method.

This is for the typical pet fighting setup only of course, in other party situations I could see us using a wider variety of subs/puppets but when bst/smn are using pets that eventually will be dismissed or die off we need to be sure that as pups we are shedding hate regularly, or avoiding it by being away from the mob doing what we need to do.

I'll go a little into what happens with bst and smn in these types of events below, hopefully it gives some of the pups here that haven't been around bst or smn too much a better idea of what we do.

As BST, hate is something that we are always thinking of and it's quite literally beaten into you as you level the job lol. During an all pet fight, our hate control comes from either using jug pets and the JA snarl to transfer our enmity to that jug pet, or by throwing natural pets at a mob and staying back from the fight (we can't snarl hate onto natural pets, only jug pets). So on fights where there isn't bad aoe and chances of getting hurt, we can all melee along with jugs and then snarl our hate away before swapping pets so that our new pets will have an easy time of establishing hate. We can use snarl every 30 seconds so it's pretty easy to keep hate off of us and on our pets when using jugs. The main sub jobs we will use are /whm and /nin. /whm for the obvious reasons like RR, raise, stoneskin, blink, cures etc and /nin so that we can absorb a few hits while swapping pets.

My SMN is only 34 so if I miss anything the higher lvl smns here can elaborate but here's how I see it pretty much going for them in these types of events. SMN will likely be subbing whm, maybe sch and their role will be to summon avatars and use BPs as frequently as possible for spike damage. There would likely be some buffing/healing here and there from BPs too I'd imagine, I probably just miss them since I'm running around lol. Curing and raising would be a big thing too for SMN.

[daii]

I think Mya just about covered how we would incorproate ourselves into the party lol.